Seether

Seether Cryx Heavy Warjack

Prime This model is available in one Prime Army, Dark Host. It can also be used in the Unlimited game mode. You can view the other Mk3 models that made it into a Legacy Army at this page. Note that the rest of this page is about the model's Mark III rules.

The murderously aggressive Seethers were created for slaughter, a task they achieve with singular efficiency. These nigh-uncontrollable constructs are more than mere killing machines, though; they are an accomplishment of malign intent. Using the horrific soul drives grafted to their cortexes, these abominations extract energy from the rage of souls bound for endless torment in order to fuel their own dark predations.

Basic Info

Seether
Missing Info
	COST {{{cacost}}} UNIT SIZE {{{casize}}} FA {{{cafa}}} Warcaster 0 BASE Large SPD 6 STR 10 MAT 8 RAT N/A M.A. N/A DEF 12 ARM 17 CMD N/A ESSENCE {{{essence}}} FOCUS N/A FURY N/A THRS N/A HP 28 F. Field N/A WJP {{{wjp}}} WBP {{{wbp}}} IHP {{{ihp}}} FA U UNIT SIZE N/A COST 12 N/A N/A N/A Warcaster 1 COST N/A N/A Understanding the Statblock

Warjack - All warjacks share the same set of special rules. Most notably being big and stompy. Click here for a newbie-friendly recap, or click here for the full rules.

Abilities

• Construct
• Countercharge - When an enemy model advances and ends its movement within 6" of this model and in its LOS, this model can immediately charge it. This model can use Countercharge only once per round and not while engaged.
• Berserk - When this model destroys one or more models with a melee attack during its Combat Action, immediately after the attack is resolved it must make one additional melee attack against another model in its melee range.
• Uncontrollable Rage - This model must run or charge during its activation if it can, unless it is engaging an enemy model. It does this without spending focus.

Weapons

Talon (x2)
		RNG				POW				P+S				LOCATION
		1				7				17				1 each side
Open Fist
Tusks
		RNG				POW				P+S				LOCATION
		1				2				12				Head
Hard Head - This model can add this weapon's POW to its head-butt and slam power attack damage rolls.

Theme Forces

• Cryx
  • Black Industries. Seether gains Carapace in this theme.
  • Dark Host
  • Scourge of the Broken Coast. Seether gains Gang Fighter in this theme.
  • The Ghost Fleet

• Other Factions
  • Infernal players can use this model in the Hearts of Darkness theme, but only if Mortenebra is leading the army. It gains Accumulator [Soulless] in this theme.
  • Mercenary and Convergence players can use it by either:
    • putting it under the control of Asphyxious4 in various themes,
    • putting it under the control of Mortenebra in Strange Bedfellows.

Thoughts on the Seether

The Seether in a nutshell

In theory, the Seether is an amazing glass-cannon wrecking ball, sporting excellent offensive capabilities with MAT 8(!), P+S 17 on the claws, Berserk, Countercharge, and free runs/charges - all at a reasonable price. Add in some debuffs and it will tear apart infantry lines and heavies alike.

In reality, the stipulations of Uncontrollable Rage are heavily exploitable by any half-decent opponent (see the Downsides section for the methods) and the Seether spends all game running, even when the opponent is only an inch away.

Furthermore its defensive statline of 12/17/28 makes it easy to hit and easy to shred, in fact it's pretty much the worst statline a heavy could have in this game.

If you want to use the Seether, you need to have a caster that gives it out-of-activation move (such as Telekinesis or Overrun) so it can get LOS and declare a charge when it does activate. In other words you've got to jump through hoops just to get it to "functional".

Note: the arguments against Seethers come from a competitive mindset where opponents are bringing S-tier lists and are familiar with how to leverage the Seether's weaknesses.

Combos & Synergies

Non-Caster

• The Black Industries theme force gives you Carapace so that it won't get shot up so easily before reaching the enemy.
• The Iron Lich Overseer 'Jack Marshal (aka the Overseether). An expensive combo at 18 points, but relatively popular (in the right army).
  • The ILO gives the Seether Dark Shroud.
  • The Seether still runs/charges for free even when marshalled, so the ILO can use a different 'Jack Marshal ability.
    • Crush (+1 attacks, +2 damage) means the talons can deliver 3 hits, and Dark Shroud means they're at a colossal-level damage output. (Or even 4 hits if you can use the Tusks to trigger Berserk)
    • Hurry (run/charge/power attack, and +2 to-hit on charges/slams) is only useful if either you're already in melee (and Uncontrollable Rage didn't trigger) and want to Trample or Throw; or if you want the +2 to hit on a charge attack.
    • Strike True (+2 to all to-hit rolls) pushes your effective MAT 10.
  • Just be sure to screen your ILO from incoming attacks.

Casters

• Scaverous - The main way to neuter the Seether is for your enemy to leave no model for it to charge within its front arc and/or turn it around with Domantion/Befuddle/TK tricks. Old Scavvy can TK enemies into range again or use it to turn the Seether around (And extend it's threat range by 3").
• Agathia1's feat works well on Seethers, creating order of activation issues for an opponent facing down potential countercharges. Also the out-of-activation possibilities afforded by Hellwrought can help prevent Seethers from being neutered by back-arc jams.
• Goreshade1 can get good mileage out of Seethers in his battlegroup. Shadowmancer not only helps protect them on the approach, it also buffs their countercharge with Dark Shroud. Judicious use of Soul Gate can also help mitigate the risk of overextending while setting you up to threaten countercharges from unexpected vectors.
• Mortenebra1's Overrun spell can help the Seether advance after a successful charge in order to maximize his Berserk attacks. Jumpstart may also help you to counter the Seether neutralizing tactics in Drawbacks & Downsides.
• Skarre2 provides Admonition, which has decent synergy with the Seether's countercharge and can make it a tricky piece for your opponent to plan their activations around, especially on her feat turn.

Drawbacks & Downsides

The Seether cannot see this Juggernaut, so it cannot charge it. Since it can't charge, it has to run - it cannot choose to simply walk and attack like any other warjack would.
(Unless you give the Seether Eyeless Sight to see through the cloud and declare a charge.)

• DEF 12, ARM 17, and 28 hit boxes combined with it being melee-only and no defensive tech all adds up to it being easy to kill - possibly the easiest to kill heavy in the game.
• It can't walk around a corner and punch someone, it must run or charge instead.
• You pay for all the offensive tech on this glass cannon and it doesn't fit together well:
  • Berserk clashes with having to charge because you can't always get into the best place to go Berserk.
  • Berserk isn't that useful on models that don't have 2" reach nor overtake. In the Seether's case, it only really lets you kill things you end up within 1" of. If that's just infantry, you could probably do that with just your initial attacks.
  • Hard Head is a bit pointless since Uncontrollable Rage means it is almost impossible to do a Power Attack.
  • Counter Charge can be actively debilitating. If you don't kill your CC target for whatever reason, the Seether will most likely be engaged (unless you positioned really, really well) and cannot charge anymore unless it takes a free strike.

Uncontrollable Rage - How to Neuter a Seether

• There are many ways to shut down charges, and if a Seether can't charge it must run ... even if an enemy is within normal walking range.
  • Anything which blocks the Seether's LOS (such as dropping a cloud in front of the Seether).
  • Anything which changes the Seether's LOS (such as Telekinesis).
  • Anything which prevents a model declaring a charge (such as Axis's feat or the Polarity Shield spell).

• Even if you can't mess with LOS or charges, you can still neuter the Seether.

Simply run a model into the Seether's back arc (that can do decent damage to an ARM 17 model on a free strike). While you're in the back arc, the Seether is not engaging you, so Uncontrollable Rage triggers and the Seether must run/charge. The Seether can't see the model in its back arc so it has two options:

1. Charge something that's in front of the Seether, and eat a free strike.
2. Use a Run to turn around to face the model in its back arc, and do nothing else that activation.

Tricks & Tips

• If you're going up against a hard target, use your Tusks vs a nearby weak infantry. That'll trigger Berserk giving you a stronger attack vs your main target.
  • You can even kill one or your own troops to trigger Berserk, which can make positioning the Seether easier.
• If you start your activation engaging, then you're free to walk normally, make normal attacks, Head-butt, Slam, Throw, or Trample through the enemy.
• Some models cannot be engaged (knocked down targets, scenario objectives, etc) and so Uncontrollable Rage will still trigger even if they're in your melee range.
• Use the Seether on the flanks. With free runs/charges and 3 initials it can work pretty well vs light/medium targets without focus, so it's no biggie if it accidentally flanks too far and ends up out of your control range.
• If you somehow get a Trample (despite Uncontrollable Rage) then try to end your trample movement in melee range of something. That way, the models you kill with the Trample will trigger a Berserk attack. But remember that trampling only triggers one instance of berserk no matter how many models you destroy.
• Kill an infantry model too near your main target with the headbutt and you can get a claw in on that main target.
• Six attacks including a charge attack in one turn is not just possible but easy. These are only P+S 17 - but the Seether can make exceptional uses of debuffs.

Other

Classic sculpt

Trivia

• Originally released in Warmachine: Escalation (2004)
• 2004 Sculptor: John Winter
• Resculpted in 2016

Other Cryx models

Cryx Index       (Edit)
Battlegroup & Similar
Warcasters	Agathia - Aiakos2 - Asphyxious1 - Asphyxious2 - Asphyxious3 - Coven - Deathjack2 - Deneghra1 - Deneghra2 - Deneghra3 - Goreshade1 - Goreshade2 - Goreshade3 - Mortenebra1 - Mortenebra2 - Rahera - Scaverous - Skarre1 - Skarre2 - Skarre3 - Sturgis2 - Terminus - Venethrax
Warcaster attachments	The Withershadow Combine - Satyxis Blood Priestess - Skarlock Thrall - Doctor Stygius (Partisan) - Madelyn Corbeau (Mercenary)
Other Warjack Controllers	Jack Marshals: Iron Lich Overseer       "Junior Warcasters": Aiakos1 - Asphyxious4 - Deneghra0
Light	Cankerworm - Deathripper - Defiler - Helldiver - Nightwretch - Ripjaw - Scavenger - Shrike - Stalker
Heavy	Barathrum - Corruptor - Deathjack1 - Desecrator - Erebus - Harrower - Kharybdis - Inflictor - Leviathan - Malice - Nightmare - Reaper - Seether - Slayer
Colossal	Kraken - Sepulcher
Units, Solos, Battle Engines, & Structures
Units	Asphyxious4 - Bane Knights - Bane Riders - Bane Warriors - Bile Thralls - BO Boarding Party - BO Ironmongers - BO Smog Belchers - Blackbane's Ghost Raiders - Bloodgorgers - Marauders - Carrion Thralls - Cephalyx Drudges - Cephalyx Overlords - Mechanithralls - Necrosurgeon - Revenant Cannon - Revenant Crew - Satyxis Gunslingers - Satyxis Blood Witches - Satyxis Raiders - Scharde Dirge Seers - Scharde Pirates - Soulhunters - The Devil's Shadow Mutineers - The Withershadow Combine
Solos	Aiakos1 - Agrimony - Axiara - Bane Lord Tartarus - Bloat Thrall - BTO Mobius - Captain Rengrave - Darragh Wrathe - Doctor Stygius - Deneghra0 - Gerlak - Hellslinger - Iron Lich Overseer - Machine Wraith - Master Gurglepox - Misery Cage - Necrotech - Ol' Grim - Pistol Wraith - Satyxis Blood Priestess - Satyxis Raider Captain - Scrap Thrall - Skarlock Thrall - Severa Blacktide - Soul Trapper - Warwitch Siren
Battle Engines & Structures	Wraith Engine
Theme Forces
Black Industries - Dark Host - The Ghost Fleet - Scourge of the Broken Coast
Mercenaries
Refer to Who Works for Whom and/or Category: Cryx Mercenary
This index was last updated: 2021.11

Rules Clarifications

Rules Clarification : Open Fist  (aka, Power Attack Throw)     (Edit) Throw ( Edit ) See also the Throw article for a recap of the core Throw rules. If a model is somehow thrown at itself (which can happen with Durst1's feat) it would not move, it would be knocked down, and it would take a standard power attack damage roll but it would not take an additional die for colliding with itself. (Infernal Ruling) Because you move the target model between the attack roll and the damage roll, you can get different buffs applied to the two rolls. For instance, if you throw the target in or out of a Flanking model's melee range. Incorporeal vs Slammed/Thrown models ( Edit ) Incorporeal models cannot be moved by someone trying to slam them. Slammed models can move through Incorporeal models. If they have enough movement to get past them, no dramas. If they land on them, you move the Incorporeal model out of the way as per the Rule of Least Disturbance. If the Incorporeal model cannot be moved (i.e. it's a flag) then you move the slammed model out of the way, also by the rule of Least Disturbance. For the purposes of Collateral Damage, only the model(s) you contacted before you applied the rule of Least Disturbance count as contacted. The same logic applies to Throws. Collateral Damage Collateral damage cannot be boosted and is not considered damage from an attack or model. Refer page 33 of the 2021.08 version of the rules pdf. As a result: It doesn't trigger stuff that relies on being hit by an enemy (such as Shock Field) or damaged by an enemy (such as Vengeance). It doesn't get bonus damage from stuff that adds to a model's damage roll (such as Signs & Portents or Prey). It doesn't matter if the attacker has crippled weapon systems or aspects. Throw - Power Attack When you make a Throw Power Attack, no other abilities of the Fist weapon (such as Chain Strike) are applied unless they specifically mention Throws. (Locked Thread) If you do a Power Attack Throw and you choose to throw the target directly away, no deviation is rolled to determine the final position of the model. (Locked thread) A model that cannot be targeted by melee attacks (such as Una2's feat) cannot have models thrown at them, either. (Infernal Ruling) Since throwing Model [A] at Model [B] involves making a melee attack roll vs Model [B] which is out of your melee range, it technically breaks a whole bunch of core rules. (Infernal Checking) Even though you make a "melee attack roll" vs Model [B] you don't actually make a melee attack vs it. Also, the damage it suffers is from Collateral damage, not from the original attack. So you can't trigger stuff like Snacking from damage you did to Model B.

Rules Clarification : Hard Head      (Edit) You can add the POW even if the weapon system is crippled. Hard Head doesn't get applied to collateral damage, because that is a separate type of roll. Refer page 45 of the mini rulebook.

Rules Clarification : Warjack      (Edit) The Cortex/Induction core rule means a warjack cannot have more than 3 focus at any time (maybe 4 if they're really special). Many abilities give out focus and don't state an upper limit (such as Convection and Empower). Despite not stating an upper limit, they are always "hard-limited" by the core rule. A warjack can have more than 3 focus during a turn, though. For instance, a knocked down warjack can Power Up and be Allocated 2 focus, then spend 1 to shake knockdown, then another model could Empower it back up to 3. Warjacks cannot spend focus outside of their activation. For instance, they can't boost free strikes or trigger Powerful Attack on Broadsides. (Infernal Ruling) Inert warjacks Abilities that say they cannot be used if the model is stationary (such as Shield Guard) cannot be used while a warjack is inert, either. Refer "Warcaster Destruction", page 59 of the core rulebook.

Rules Clarification : Construct - None yet. (Edit)

Rules Clarification:  : Countercharge      (Edit) (Click Expand to read)

Timing     If the moving model has Assault, the Countercharge is resolved before the Assault attack. (Infernal Ruling). If the moving model has a rule that resolves "at the end of Normal Movement" (such as Slipstream), the Countercharge is resolved before the other rule. (Infernal Ruling) The moving model cannot use an "Any Time" after finishing their advance but before your Countercharge. They can use it only after the Countercharge is resolved. If the non-countercharging player has a similar "ends an advance" trigger (such as Admonition) then they can trigger and resolve that from your countercharge movement. Example: Model [A] charges, and triggers Countercharge on [B]. Model [B] countercharges, and triggers Admonition on [C]. Resolve Admonition on [C]. Then finish resolving Countercharge on [B]. Then finish model [A]'s activation.     Triggering Countercharge     You can trigger Countercharge if you're engaging, but not engaged. You can trigger Countercharge during your own turn, if your opponent has an ability to move during your turn (such as Admonition). Some abilities let you "ignore intervening models when declaring a charge" (such as Flight). Unfortunately, you still need LOS to trigger Countercharge, and it's only after CC is triggered that you actually get to declare a charge. In other words, Flight and Countercharge don't work together for LOS purposes. What does trigger Countercharge Countercharge triggers off any advance, not just in-activation stuff. Standing still but changing facing is an advance. What doesn't trigger Countercharge Aiming, or forfeiting your movement, is not advancing. If a model doesn't move, doesn't change facing, doesn't aim ... does nothing but skips straight ahead to its Combat Action, this is not an advance. (Infernal Ruling) Being placed (such as Teleport) is not an advance. Involuntary movement (being slammed, thrown, or pushed) is not an advance. When a unit is moving, countercharge is triggered on a model-by-model basis. So you can countercharge after any model in the unit has finished its move within range, but you can only countercharge that model who just finished its movement. You can't "save it" until the entire unit finishes moving and then say "I'm going to Countercharge the first guy you moved."     Attacks, Boosting, & Other Triggers     You only get one attack when making a countercharge, regardless of how many initials you normally have. The charge attack damage is only boosted if the Countercharger moved 3" or more, as with a regular charge. Countercharge occurs outside of activation so you can't spend fury/focus to boost a countercharge attack, nor buy additional attacks afterwards, not trigger stuff that only happens during your Combat Action (like Berserk). Even if you trigger Countercharge during your own activation, for the duration of you resolving the CC it "no longer counts" as being in your activation. (Infernal Ruling)     After the Countercharge     The countercharging model cannot use any abilities that trigger on "during activation" or "during combat action" (such as Sprint), as Counter Charge is not an activation. (Locked thread)     Other interactions     Countercharge during your own activation (Countercharge vs Admonition etc) ( Edit ) You can trigger Countercharge during your own activation, but only if an enemy model moves during your activation. For instance, you move towards a model who has Admonition and they trigger that to try to move away. (You do a normal move, they trigger admonition and move, you trigger countercharge from their admonition-move.) However countercharge always counts as being out-of-activation, no matter when you trigger it. (Infernal Ruling) As a result, you can't trigger only-during-activation effects (such as Critical Shred & Sustained Attack). On the other hand, you can potentially get two charge attacks (one for your normal charge, one for the counter charge). (Infernal Ruling) This ruling still applies even after the 2018.07 update (Infernal Re-ruling) Countercharge plus Admonition If a model has both CC and Admonition, it can trigger both at the same time. A model moves nearby, it admonitions away, then countercharges back in. Countercharge Inception If a model [A] has Countercharge, and it charges an enemy model [B] that has Countercharge and Admonition, then ... Model [A] charges and triggers CC and Admo on [B] Model [B] Admo moves but before it can resolve its own CC, it triggers CC on [A] You now have two models that have triggered CC simultaneously. So the Active player gets to resolve their one first. Assault vs Countercharge ( Edit ) Things which are resolved when a model "ends movement" (such as Countercharge) need to be resolved before the Assault attack. (Infernal Ruling). Countercharge & Cavalry ( Edit ) A model with Countercharge and Cavalry can make Impact Attacks during the countercharge. (Refer "Charges Outside of Activation" in the rulebook).

Rules Clarification : Berserk      (Edit) Berserk attacks will generate even more Berserk attacks. You keep going until you miss, something survives, or you run out of targets. Berserk grants an additional attack which by definition can only occur during your Combat Action. Therefore Berserk doesn't work on free strikes, impact attacks, etc. "Immediately" means you can't save it until later in your activation. Berserk must be resolved at step 14 of the attack sequence (refer Apdx A). You cannot use "Any Time" abilities while resolving the original attack, the Berserk attack, or between the attacks. Refer Apdx A. Berserk doesn't trigger during a frenzy. (Infernal Ruling) Berserk will not trigger if the target uses an ability to move the damage to another model (such as a warlock transfer). But it will trigger if they use an ability to move the attack to a different model (such as Grim Salvation). Berserk has a weird niche interaction with Agathon's abilities, which you can read here. Attack-Generating Abilities (Edit) From the core rulebook: When a model is granted more attacks as a result of an attack it made, it gains only one. If two or more special rules would grant the model another attack as a result of making an attack, its controlling player chooses which special rule to apply. If you trigger two attack-generating abilities (such as Black Spot and Kill Shot) you choose to resolve one and "lose" the other (unless you trigger it again later). If you trigger two attack-generating abilities, and one of them is compulsory (such as Black Spot and Berserk), you must choose to resolve the compulsory one. (Infernal Ruling)

Rules Clarification : Uncontrollable Rage      (Edit) You can declare a run then don't move the Seether and don't change its facing. Doing this fulfils the requirements of Uncontrollable Rage and doesn't count as advancing. (Infernal Ruling) In other words, a Seether can "run and stay still" if you need to avoid enemy abilities that trigger on "advances and ends movement" (such as Countercharge). If the Seether is affected by something that prevents running and charging (such as Lock the Target or having a crippled Movement system) then Uncontrollable Rage doesn't apply. Instead you get a normal activation. (Infernal Ruling)